DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Everything about your Aeronca, not Chief or Champ or Sedan specific.
Paul Agaliotis
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DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

I'm currently stuck in the old FAA limbo. I have 2 Champs and 1 Chief paperwork packages under review with them. In all cases the Registration was cancelled due to accidents. I've been through Part 21 concerning the A/W Certificate Part 91 for inspection to issue an A/W Certificate and Part 47 about the Registration. The only place I can find information on cancellation of the Registration is a FAA Order 8020.11C. It states that "when repair is unlikley" the owner or agent is required to request cancallation. What ever that means. The method for cancellation is just as wierd, just send a FAX or call the Registration branch.
So my question is, does anone know of a Regulation that requires the cancellation of the Registration of an accident aircraft?
I can see the A/W being canceled and re-issued after the major repair, but the Registration should always be maintained in some form.
Paul
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Richard
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Richard »

Paul;
Several years ago in Spokane, a GADO friend was telling about a stearman that was rebuilt. Because it was listed as destroyed by some inexperienced FAA inspector; the AW was cancelled because of some law. They couldn't get it back even though the plane was rebuilt.
I've noticed that some of the a/c salvage companies are now warning bidder's that the a/c may be deregistered after an accident.

Richard

bob turner
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by bob turner »

And yet there are a lot of airplanes that exist by paperwork alone, for decades, before being resurrected. Sounds like bureaucratic nonsense, both ways. Soon they will make it so difficult they will have no one to regulate.

Bo Grave
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Bo Grave »

Paul,

Have you talked to a DAR about this. They should have some experience with this. People de-reg aircraft put in storage. It should not be that hard to re reg.

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Dennis
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Dennis »

Several years ago, a friend wanted to buy a C310 in Illinois that would need to be ferried to my location due to a gear up landing. So I got the tail number and did a little research. I found the original owner in Colorado. Come to find out, the plane had been deregistered due to rebuilder/insurance recommendation after multiple gear up landings and corresponding spar repairs. It was deregistered and sold to a salvage yard. The Illinois buyer re-registered the plane and ferried it home where it again "hit the ground" while setting on the ramp.

In light of the above, I can't believe it would be too difficult to get it re-registered.

Good luck.

Dennis

MikeB
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by MikeB »

For whatever it's worth my L16 was deregistered and reinstated according to the CD at one time.

Mike

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

I'm compiling the information to send a letter to anyone that will listen. I got a form letter from the FAA that says to send them information, photos or anything related to my case to show that the wreckage conforms to the definition of "Airplane". Before the wreck it was an airplane but after the wreck it doesn't conform to the definition. And based on that they will not register the airplane until it meet the definition again. I'm a bit leery about spending the time, money and effort if the registration is in question. I can see the A/W certificate being cancelled until it is rebuilt but not the registration.
I just can't seem to find any regulation that cancels the registration due to an accident, other than the Order 8020.11C. This Order covers the accident notification,investigation and reporting.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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Richard Murray
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Richard Murray »

Paul,

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but you are SOL.

I spent six months corresponding with OKC and then the Special Emphasis Investigation Team (ASF-900 SEIT). They even sent two ASI's (one from Phoenix and one from Omaha) to look at my damaged aircraft. The final determination was "it is not capable of flight". It can be assembled and non-airworthy, but it must have all of the components that make it an aircraft installed.

My mistake was admitting that the aircraft was dis-assembled and awaiting repair. This was triggered by a letter from the insurance company stating the aircraft was considered a total loss.

Then I purchased a Chief and the owner sent the 8050-3 card in with the box checked as scrapped or destroyed (prop strike and outboard of right wing damaged). I had the aircraft taken apart and sitting in the hangar when the two aforementioned ASI's looked at my Champ. I took eight different views of the aircraft before I took it apart and sent a really comprehensive letter addressing the same questions regarding it being a 'whole and complete aircraft'. Denied and the details were it was not capable of flight.

Every time I got a letter back from OKC there was a different excuse why it could not ne registered, The 'not capable of flight' was the one that made me decide to fix it and then try to register it. If not certificated then they have no option but to grant me an experimental airworthiness certificate.

Read this memorandum http://aeronca.celinaux.com/pics/etcaafrp.pdf
Richard

MikeB
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by MikeB »

Seems like this gets into the realm of a ASI not really understanding that most of these tube and fabric aircraft can be brought back to 'good as new or even better' condition after rebuilding with new tubing, spars, etc. I know of at one where a 'replacement tail section' was installed and spliced in according to the specs in 43.13. I suppose once the paperwork goes through as the aircraft is 'deregistered' it probably takes more scrutiny but it shouldn't be an impossible task. I'm thinking of another where there was a complete replacement fuselage installed. It's not like there is a serial number stamped on the airframe. Maybe it makes a difference on how much the aircraft was crunched and for some owners a simple ground loop that resulted in a broken spar is enough to throw in the towel.

Someone who shall remain unknown flipped a Cessna 150 over on her back by hooking a snow bank on a narrow farm runway. The aircraft had substantial damage with a prop strike, damaged wings and tail feathers yet that aircraft was on the registration for years afterward but to my knowledge nothing was done to it. Might still be for all I know.

Richard: I like the last part of your statement "experimental airworthiness certificate". That should throw someone for a 'loop' (pan intended').

Mike

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

Richard,
I'm going to approach it from a little different angle. The Insurance companies cancel the registration, but by what criteria? They are not in the repair business so their cancellation was based on economic reasons. I ,on the other hand, do have a background in maintenance and repair and see the aircraft as highly repairable.
I'm going to write to the author of the FAA Order 8020.11C and explain the situation. You gotta shake the tree to get the fruit to fall.
If this works we might be able to get some relief on these questionable revocations. I remember talking briefly at the NAA banquet about this same issue. Hope we can get some action, I'm feeling that my "Unalienable Right to Happiness" is being infringed.
Paul
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Richard Murray
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Richard Murray »

Mike,

Someone who shall remain nameless registered another aircraft that was damaged to a greater extent than the Chief they refused to register for me. This occurred in the past year after my registration was denied. The problem is if anything triggers a flag about the condition of the aircraft they send out a Dear Aircraft Owner letter questioning the suitability of the aircraft for registration. Their request is for supporting evidence of the aircraft in its present condition. I made the mistake of stating the aircraft was taken apart for repairs. Take a picture of one taken apart and its assured you will get a denial in their reply with an invite to resubmit evidence including logbook entries, receipts, 337's detailing the repairs and any pictures showing the aircraft in its present state.

Paul,

I involved my congressman and the FAA attorney who responded to him stated that 'salvage was commonly accepted to mean destroyed or scrapped'. No where can I find that definition. I explained to the ASI's that they wanted me to perjure myself to register the aircraft. They also asserted that registration was not a proof of ownership.
I wish you well and I fully intended to take this to court, but they make up whatever interpretation they need to support their position. I just decided that I would rebuild and have an experimental if they choose not to accept it for registration as a certificated aircraft.
Richard

MikeB
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by MikeB »

Kind of 'beating a dead horse to death' but my last post on the subject. In order to recover the aircraft it's necessary to disassemble it. Anytime you take a 65 year old flying machine apart there will be some parts that need repair or replacement. Been there and done that and it's going to be in better shape than before it was taken apart for cover. That's why IA's like Paul are involved in determining the airworthiness for certified aircraft. I can think of one that was flying (Clipper) even though the lower longerons were rusted through in a couple of places. So it apparently gets down to the aircraft being declared as salvage. Heck..... half of the 'war birds' that are presently flying have been brought back from the dead but then I'd guess they are registered as experimental anyway.
Mike

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Paul Agaliotis »

Mike,
I'm going to give it a shot. Richard had a terrible time with his situation. There just has to be a better way to handle this registration issue.
In my case I'm not too deep in these airplanes and could easily recover my investment, but the bigger picture is the loss of the Aeroncas from the registry. Once the're gone they will never come back.
Paul
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Richard Murray
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by Richard Murray »

Paul,
Truer words were never spoken
but the bigger picture is the loss of the Aeroncas from the registry. Once the're gone they will never come back.
The mindset at the registration branch is to cull the list of aircraft that are not in a condition for flight and only have a registry of dare I say airworthy airplanes. Every rime I got a letter it seemed they were questioning the airworthiness, which I asserted could only be established by an annual inspection and deemed airworthy by the PIC at the time of flight. They always said they were not determining airworthiness.

I really felt I had logic on my side and still do. However when you sit at a table with two ASI's who have inspected your aircraft and its logs in ten minutes and ask what is missing that it cannot be considered a whole and complete aircraft for the purposes of registration, only to be told they can't make that decision and were only there to gather evidence, you begin to wonder who's running the show.

I know Paul is much more knowledgeable than I on the regulations and dealing with this bureaucracy and hope he can find a hole in the armor that shields them from making what seems to be sane decisions.

Mike,

The most frustrating thing for me was how do you transport a damaged aircraft without taking it apart. I even used the logic that it was ludicrous to put the plane back together just so I could show them a 'whole and complete' aircraft. I even questioned the qualifications for employment at the registration branch and if being able to read and understand the English language was one of the requirements

Several years ago in a lecture I attended on vocational education by Tim Dollin, he remarked, "When the horse dies, don't forget to dismount" I never fully appreciated those words until the program I was teaching was dis-continued. .Now dealing with the FAA when they came up with 'capable of flight' and my Chief that should have been registered wasn't because I stated it was disassembled (really stupid on my part), I find its time to dismount.

I will attempt to register each aircraft when repairs are completed and see if all that has been told me comes true.
Last edited by Richard Murray on Sun Feb 22, 2015 15:29, edited 1 time in total.
Richard

jnmeade
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Re: DeRegistration of Aeroncas

Post by jnmeade »

My airplane was deregistered after an accident, repaired and re-registered before I bought it. I could pass on the name of the A&P if it helpful.

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