Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Props, Spinners and McDowell Starter issues.
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skyking3286
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by skyking3286 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 18:48

Let's not get too technical here. There is a provision for owner produced parts, which can also mean that the owner oversaw the production of a part for the plane. Especially if the part is no longer in production and the manufacturer is no longer in business. There has been a long tradition of making parts for your yourself and then a few others to trade or sell or loan or whatever.

Now the point that I find lawerly interesting: McDowell starter... Aeronca TC, so Aeronca PMA which is now ACA? Or does it go with the starter? When you put the starter on the plane in 1946, was it a simple 337 or a STC? Remember that any 337 before 1955 is approved data for the plane.
Mark Peterson
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EDGEFLY
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Fri Mar 22, 2013 20:10

Mark,

I think the important thing here is getting parts available for Aeronca owners who have a desire to put one of these starters on their aircraft. We can easily get off on the track of which reg fits what and who has the greatest FAA bogeyman story to tell. There have been many things accomplished through tradional methods and I'm sure the FAA knows that these things are happening. IMHO we need to concentrate on making the technical information available and finding out how many people would be interested in seriously pursuing a starter upgrade on their planes. When I say pursuing, I mean people who are not just wanting to do jaw exercises but owners who would be interested enough to make an investment in procuring the hardware to actually install a starter. The reason is that there don't seem to be a whole lot of these parts(used) availabile. And if there are a significant number of potential users, perhaps we can find a way around at least some of the barriers to making starters possible for those who would and could have them. I think Colie has done great job of getting the technical information together and that we need to have a reasonable idea of how many users would be ready to put that information to work if I was possible.

By the way Item 106 Starter- McDowell (Aeronca Dwg 7-600) is listed on the TCDS for the 11 AC.
How about you ? Are you interested in a starter for your aircraft ?


Dale

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Fri Mar 22, 2013 20:10

Mark,
The installation would be a log entry. The installation approval is listed in the TCDS.
The manufacturing of parts for sale requires a PMA. The rub with the starter is it predates the FAA, so does the PMA even apply? I don't know and don't care to ask the FAA. Their position would be that it's an airplane part so it's governed by the FAR's, they would be foolish to say otherwise.
I'm happy to help any Aeronca owner with anything I'm capable of making. What they do with the items is the business of them, and their inspector. It's just your hands are tied if you offer them for sale. In the past I've supplied some of these 1:1 patterns for them to copy to comply with the regs.
There is a lot of information in the AC's about fabricating and approving the replacement parts. Just make sure you've got about 10 uninterrupted hours, and a mason jar full of "Man Oil", before you start down that rabbit hole.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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skyking3286
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by skyking3286 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 20:47

I have a starter in a box, probably missing a few pulleys. I also did a drawing for the starter stick, which looks lot like a control stick with a few things welded on. I think you're on the right path here. The starter was off a Model T or A anyway, so if you really get technical its a car part! The only thing that I miss on my plane is the impulse mags, which I don't have on the Chief and my lunchboxes work just fine. Keep up the good work here!
Mark Peterson
Harvey Field, WA
A copy of my old Chief website is preserved here:

http://www.reocities.com/mrpeters.geo/index.html

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Fri Mar 22, 2013 21:11

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Mark,
The installation would be a log entry. The installation approval is listed in the TCDS.
The manufacturing of parts for sale requires a PMA. The rub with the starter is it predates the FAA, so does the PMA even apply? I don't know and don't care to ask the FAA. Their position would be that it's an airplane part so it's governed by the FAR's, they would be foolish to say otherwise.
I'm happy to help any Aeronca owner with anything I'm capable of making. What they do with the items is the business of them, and their inspector. It's just your hands are tied if you offer them for sale. In the past I've supplied some of these 1:1 patterns for them to copy to comply with the regs.
There is a lot of information in the AC's about fabricating and approving the replacement parts. Just make sure you've got about 10 uninterrupted hours, and a mason jar full of "Man Oil", before you start down that rabbit hole.
Paul
Paul,

I must respectfully disagree with your opinion. As I have said before,No one is proposing that these McDowell parts are
simply to be "put up for sale". The whole concept from the beginning was to make them available to users if they were unable to find satisfactory used original parts. Not as something that you could order from a catalog company and not something that was being made to substitute for a manufacturers part when it is available. There also is no profit motive in the sense of buy and sell. It doesn't matter if it's baby carriages or whale teeth, a manufactured piece is going to have a cost and the end user will normally end up having to pay it. the FAA, like any regulatory organization, is bound to have its' faults, but that doesn't mean that there is no way of working with them to achieve a desirable outcome. When the FAA has me put in prison for 50 years for arranging the procurement of
otherwise unavailable parts built to original manufacturers specifications, you are invited to proclaim "I told him so". (I hope you will visit me at the prison and bring treats)

Back to the beginning, how many of the readers of his forum would like to reequip their aircraft with a McDowell Starter????????????



Dale

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hangerash
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by hangerash » Fri Mar 22, 2013 22:03

Dale,

Thanks for spearheading this effort.

Please don't let your zeal cause you to miss the wisdom Paul has included in his posts.

Paul will not make a single part. It is forbidden to make a part other than for yourself. Paul will make a lot of patterns and not be in violation of any regulation.

I am sure your efforts will produce fruit, but if you ask someone who isn't allowed to have an opinion permission they will always say no, no matter how honorable or just your cause is.

Richard
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Chief Pilot » Fri Mar 22, 2013 22:24

The photos show Paul’s front pulley bracket. Collie shows the part installed in a couple of his photos.

Here’s a link to an article on owner-produced parts: http://www.faa.gov/news/safety_briefing ... ug2002.pdf

Another interesting read is the FAA Unapproved Parts Notification: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/safety/programs/sups/upn/

Raleigh
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Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Fri Mar 22, 2013 22:32

Dale,
It's a pretty fine line you need to walk when doing this type of work. An example is a magneto re-builder out West that had an impeccable record of reliability. As a Repair Station he is required to keep a bunch of records,but, when the local ASI came to the shop he asked for the records of the repair parts he was installing. Most of the parts were military surplus, WW-II, due to the type of mags they repaired. Since he had no conformity information on the parts he had installed they pull his Repair Station certificate, no failures or flight related incidents, only missing paperwork. So decades of fine work and experience take that right hand helix down the drain, the Fed's are pretty serious about this stuff.
Take a look at AC 43-18 it covers the fabrication of parts, just not the parts we little guys use. AC 23-27 the vintage aircraft replacement part guide, gives you some options but most of it pertains to approval of the parts that are made.
We work in a bit of a grey area, allowed to maintain our planes with a hands off approach. Until there is an problem that causes the FAA to react, like an operational issue or unapproved parts. Not that the parts are bad, only that they lack approval.
Paul
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colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Fri Mar 22, 2013 23:15

nice looking, sturdy mount for the A-65, and angled down for the cable to run under the induction tubes. Do you have the stud nuts , or spacer nuts to go with it ? they are getting hard to find now.

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Sat Mar 23, 2013 01:05

Colie,
The last time I looked Univair had them. They call them cowl mounts for the J3. They are spaced to use the stud nuts. There is also a small attach lug I left separate to brace the mount back to the push rod housing. It's not shown in the post.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Sat Mar 23, 2013 09:12

Paul Agaliotis wrote:Dale,
It's a pretty fine line you need to walk when doing this type of work. An example is a magneto re-builder out West that had an impeccable record of reliability. As a Repair Station he is required to keep a bunch of records,but, when the local ASI came to the shop he asked for the records of the repair parts he was installing. Most of the parts were military surplus, WW-II, due to the type of mags they repaired. Since he had no conformity information on the parts he had installed they pull his Repair Station certificate, no failures or flight related incidents, only missing paperwork. So decades of fine work and experience take that right hand helix down the drain, the Fed's are pretty serious about this stuff.
Take a look at AC 43-18 it covers the fabrication of parts, just not the parts we little guys use. AC 23-27 the vintage aircraft replacement part guide, gives you some options but most of it pertains to approval of the parts that are made.
We work in a bit of a grey area, allowed to maintain our planes with a hands off approach. Until there is an problem that causes the FAA to react, like an operational issue or unapproved parts. Not that the parts are bad, only that they lack approval.
Paul
I
Paul,

No question. However, if you will carefully read what I have proposed, nowhere will you find that I have suggested use, promotion or acceptance of parts/material that were not in compliance with the manufacturers' original specification. That obviously means that some record of of that status has to be available if required. In between there there and reality there is a lot of space. This is true of the Next-gen fighter aircraft and my 11 AC with its' newly installed McDowell sitting on a grass Patch. We'll work it out.

Received more drawings of the Starter assembly yesterday. On one of them (a McDowll drwg), there is an assembly clearance of 1/16". On the unit, mounted on the aircraft ! That may prove interesting for one of our folks or his/her A/P to achieve. But, if they could do it in Middletown in 1945, There must be a way in 2013.

Dale

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 10:41

Dale, That 1/16 " clearance between the ratchet wheel and the starter is a minimum clearance and is easily achieved with shims on either the ratchet wheel ( increase ), or starter mount ( decrease ). and no shims are normally even needed.

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Sat Mar 23, 2013 15:35

Colie,

Right on! I tried to make that point when I said that I think we can do that in 2013. I am sure many such instances are possible to find in the details we now have. I'm simply addressing what may seem to be problems in the minds of those with a negative bent. I remain positive about both the ability to manufacture and install McDowells within existing operating and regulatory parameters.

Dale

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Mon Mar 25, 2013 17:18

Dale,
Some of the installation instructions are to compensate for small differences in manufacturing. If the starter has a .030 variance and the mounts have .020 then the prop adapter with another .050, once they add up you could need a spacer for adjustment, or not.
I don't consider myself a nay-Sayer, some of the crap I build is pretty cool. I'm just not willing to risk my certificates, the way I make my living, on something that is strictly prohibited per the FAR's.
I will be happy to build as many parts for you as you desire, once you have obtained your PMA.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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