Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Props, Spinners and McDowell Starter issues.
colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:02

mcdowell starter installation, ending A65-8 and starting C85 installation . unable to downsize these without losing a lot of quality. unable to load a PDF file here
Attachments
A-65-8 installation.jpg
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C-85 installtion.jpg
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starter cutaway 4-712.jpg
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colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:20

mounting starter and pulleys to C-85
Attachments
front p brackett.JPG
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front pulley brackett.JPG
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rear pulley brackett.JPG
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colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:25

more C-85
Attachments
fitting front pulley mount on C85 case.JPG
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DSC00983.JPG
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front pulley mount C-85.JPG
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colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:30

Mcdowell, C-85 Note the different starter and pulley mounts. C-85 versus A-65
Attachments
fitting starter and front pulley mount to C85.JPG
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starter and nosebowl.JPG
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starter and front pulley mounts on C-85.JPG
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colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 10:36

keep in mind the differences for your engine applications, tapered or flange shaft. C-85 or A-65 cases
Attachments
spinner, starter with new cable and 85 mounting bracket,fwd pulley mount, rear pulley mount, flange shaft ratchet wheel.JPG
(149.45 KiB) Downloaded 4082 times

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Nathan K. Hammond
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Nathan K. Hammond » Thu Mar 21, 2013 13:53

Good stuff Colie!

nkh
7AC-5691
Super 85-12F @ DVK

EDGEFLY
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Thu Mar 21, 2013 16:34

Colie,

Fantastic detail. Keep it coming.

You asked a while back "Any Questions". Well I have a few but don't let my personal inquiries hold up the material you are providing to the thread.

1) How many inquiries have you received since you started posting info here on the NAA Site ?

2) Have you compiled a list of the drawings required to fully describe a McDowell starter for an 11AC 65hp Chief ? I am trying to do that in pursuit of a starter for my chief. As my effort progresses, you are certainly welcome to it if it would help you in your efforts. How about text ? Are you preparing any description of the system or operation in textual form ? I am aware that you are planning a presentation for Sun & Fun. Are you planning any kind of a video ?

3) With respect to the posts you have made here:

The "McDowell Starter diag" is clipped on the left side. Can/would you repost this so it can be viewed in a full window width ?

The same question applies to the" McDowell Starter Installation tips" post.

4)You have probably have noted the discussion between Joe A . and myself about the number of starters/starter parts etc. needed in the community. With your input that 12-15 units being available, I defer to your joint judgement. But, as I have watched this develop, I am a bit skeptical about the real number required. However, presuming that you and he are correct, could you please give me a number of sources which may be willing to actually part with the pieces they have in hand ? I believe there may be a few pieces and parts lying around but getting their owners to give them up at a realistic price may be less likely. Also, in this vein Raliegh on this forum is looking for a ratchet gear for a flanged shaft. Maybe you can help him. Also, I remember that Joe A. has stated that he has some, if not most, of a McDowell but he is not willing to sell whatever he has. Quite obviously you have some large number of parts. Are you willing to loan out pieces for the purpose of having copies of them made ?

5) In the area of having new production of existing parts. Do you have an Aeronca reference for selection of the cable used to operate the starter ? What about the opening in the floorboard for the Starter Lever to travel. Is there a drawing for that ? Is there a description of how Aeronca filled the area cut out ? i.e. with canvas as shown in one of your posts or perhaps with a fabric material from automoble production etc. ? I will start tonight to try to compile that list of drawings for myself. If you are aware of some that may not be available through the NAA or Todd Trainor, please let me know.


Dale

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Mar 21, 2013 17:28

Dale,
I have produced all of the brackets, with exception of the C series starter mount. In order to sell these parts you would need a PMA for them. I would be happy to make any parts the members would need, but to sell them would be in violation of the FAR's. I could provide 1:1 scale parts that the owner could use for copying should they choose to do so.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

Chief Pilot
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Chief Pilot » Thu Mar 21, 2013 18:46

Dale, recognize that the FAA strives to regulate the production of all parts for certificated aircraft, whether it be an 11AC or an A340. That agency takes a dim view of manufacturing and selling airplane parts without their approval. The PMA that Paul mentions is an FAA "Parts Manufacturer Approval".

The process for obtaining and maintaining a PMA is referenced on their website and is generally understood to be a significant cost driver of airplane parts production: http://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/de ... ovals/pma/

Despite your apparent not-for-profit (and appreciated) intentions of helping Aeronca owners, the FAA may view soliciting orders, arranging manufacturing contracts, collecting money and distributing the finished parts as "production and sales" and expect it to be done in accordance with a PMA. By the way, I have no connection to the FAA except for having been granted license to fly and maintain airplanes.

Raleigh

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Mar 21, 2013 19:30

Raleigh,
Are you satisfied with the "patterns" I sent you?
I'm still looking for the taper shaft ratchet wheel. The shop is a wreck, I have the L16 scattered all over it. All of the McDowell stuff is in one box, I just can't get to it yet.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

colie85857
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Thu Mar 21, 2013 20:51

EDGEFLY wrote:Colie,
Dale, I will try to answer some of your questions. 1) only what is posted on this forum for inquiries, 2) If you will PM me your email address, I will send you the drawings I have in PDF format, that I cant install on the forum. No written text yet, just notes and ad libbing as in previous sun n fun forums. 3) The Mcdowell starter diag is a blowup of a section of the exploded view of the A 65 in your Chief manual 4) Of the 12-15 units, they are mostly starters only. The owners are all looking for information on what they need to put a starter on the plane and dont know where to start or what is needed for their application. That is the purpose of this forum and sun n fun forum. I have PM d Raleigh about his ratchet wheel with some info if Paul A. doesnt find a tapered shaft ratchet wheel. On the spare parts I only have accumulated the parts needed for the assembly of two chiefs One A65 and one C85, one with tapered shaft ,one with flanged shaft. only took 7 -8 years because of lack of info out there. I do have some new pawls which have been useful for barter. # 5 ) Dont fully understand the question on the cable. It is just standard PMAd 3/32 aviation cable from ACS, WagAero,etc with a ball swadged on one end by the supplier or your IA, I forget the exact length of about 5-6 ft, I do have an Aeronca print of the floorboard with cutout that I will send you.
Fantastic detail. Keep it coming.

You asked a while back "Any Questions". Well I have a few but don't let my personal inquiries hold up the material you are providing to the thread.

1) How many inquiries have you received since you started posting info here on the NAA Site ?

2) Have you compiled a list of the drawings required to fully describe a McDowell starter for an 11AC 65hp Chief ? I am trying to do that in pursuit of a starter for my chief. As my effort progresses, you are certainly welcome to it if it would help you in your efforts. How about text ? Are you preparing any description of the system or operation in textual form ? I am aware that you are planning a presentation for Sun & Fun. Are you planning any kind of a video ?

3) With respect to the posts you have made here:

The "McDowell Starter diag" is clipped on the left side. Can/would you repost this so it can be viewed in a full window width ?

The same question applies to the" McDowell Starter Installation tips" post.

4)You have probably have noted the discussion between Joe A . and myself about the number of starters/starter parts etc. needed in the community. With your input that 12-15 units being available, I defer to your joint judgement. But, as I have watched this develop, I am a bit skeptical about the real number required. However, presuming that you and he are correct, could you please give me a number of sources which may be willing to actually part with the pieces they have in hand ? I believe there may be a few pieces and parts lying around but getting their owners to give them up at a realistic price may be less likely. Also, in this vein Raliegh on this forum is looking for a ratchet gear for a flanged shaft. Maybe you can help him. Also, I remember that Joe A. has stated that he has some, if not most, of a McDowell but he is not willing to sell whatever he has. Quite obviously you have some large number of parts. Are you willing to loan out pieces for the purpose of having copies of them made ?

5) In the area of having new production of existing parts. Do you have an Aeronca reference for selection of the cable used to operate the starter ? What about the opening in the floorboard for the Starter Lever to travel. Is there a drawing for that ? Is there a description of how Aeronca filled the area cut out ? i.e. with canvas as shown in one of your posts or perhaps with a fabric material from automoble production etc. ? I will start tonight to try to compile that list of drawings for myself. If you are aware of some that may not be available through the NAA or Todd Trainor, please let me know.


Dale

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Chief Pilot » Thu Mar 21, 2013 21:06

Raleigh,
Are you satisfied with the "patterns" I sent you?
I'm still looking for the taper shaft ratchet wheel. The shop is a wreck, I have the L16 scattered all over it. All of the McDowell stuff is in one box, I just can't get to it yet.
Paul
Absolutely, Paul. The front bracket is a fine piece of work. I haven't done a fit check yet but it appears to match the drawing perfectly. With your permission I'll post some photos here. There is no rush on finding a ratchet wheel. I have plenty of other issues to resolve before I install the starter. (I bought my airplane with a recent restoration, a current annual, and an independent pre-purchase inspection. I don't want to use this forum as a complaint department but if anyone is interested in my discrepancy list, I'll post the short version under a different thread -- an FYI of some things to look for.)

Raleigh

EDGEFLY
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Idling parts ?

Post by EDGEFLY » Thu Mar 21, 2013 21:51

Raleigh,
From your discussion with Paul, it seems you may be a while from starter installation. It just so happens that I know a Chief Owner who might be interested in whatever you have and could put them into use in the short term ! He might even be willing to rent them for a while !!

Dale

EDGEFLY
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Re: McDowell Parts

Post by EDGEFLY » Thu Mar 21, 2013 21:58

Raliegh and Paul,

First, let me say that I am not experienced with the regulation difficulties which you have cited. However, I believe, there are provisions in these same regulations for the manufacture and use of aircraft components which are no longer available (e.g. Manufacturer gone out of business or
refusing to continue production of a component) especially for antique aircraft which allows owners to
legally obtain or fabricate themselves replacement parts for such aircraft. This obviously obviously excludes items or subsystems for which there is an existing STC or PMA. An example is the "Electric Drill Starter which is presumably applicable to Aeronca, Cubs and Taylorcraft. No matter what someone thinks about the approach, the person with the PMA went through the cost and paperwork to get it and is obviously protected against others simply copying his work and reselling a nearly identical item. I believe this is a different situation where a few nearly 70 year old production machines might be retrofitted with IDENTICAL parts to those they were or could have been originally been built. The parts under discussion do not impact the airworthiness of the aircraft and were included units' original and current TCDS. the installed starter adds 9 lbs(-39) if it is felt necessary to modify the W&B. You are correct that my intent is not for anyone to make a profit from the manufacture and provision of these parts. I brought the quantities into the discussion as a simple matter of making their manufacture more cost effective. On the other hand, for a person who has a business interest in Aviation doing this might be inviting unnecessary scrutiny by participating in such an endeavour. Perhaps a 501c organization needs to be created for the purpose of manufacturing and distributing these parts. I would rather think that a satisfactory agreement can be worked out.

My thanks to both of you for pointing out these potential problems and suggest we focus on making the parts available to all Aeroncateers who want them. Because you have brought these considerations forth, I will take it up with authorities when I have time.

Thanks,

Dale

Paul Agaliotis
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Thu Mar 21, 2013 22:39

Raleigh,
I think it would be great to see some pictures of the stuff. If I was a little better with the computer I might even post a picture.
You'll find the pulley is a different size. Some of the diameters are not currently available.

Dale,
The regulations paint with a broad brush. Making the simplist of parts is considered on the same scale as a complete aircraft. The FAR's can be applied to fit your specific need and generally work pretty well. But, the FAR's will always list what is prohibited but never list what is allowed. Maybe this is by design, I'd like to think so.
If there is a need for some patterns to be produced we probably need start a list. With that being said, I don't work too fast or too slow, kinda half-fast.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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