Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Props, Spinners and McDowell Starter issues.
Chief Pilot
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Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Chief Pilot » Mon Mar 18, 2013 01:31

Does anyone have a McDowell starter ratchet wheel for a tapered crankshaft that they would sell or trade for a flanged-shaft version? I have managed to collect almost all of the other parts for this starter installation. Another possibility -- has anyone tried to convert a flanged-shaft wheel to a tapered-shaft version by cutting the deep-dish center out and welding in a new center? Thank you, Raleigh
McDowell Ratchets.jpg
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EDGEFLY
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Neededw

Post by EDGEFLY » Mon Mar 18, 2013 08:17

Chief Pilot,
The McDowell parts I was pursuing were sold while I tried to evaluate their usefulness to me. I am starting again. One thing which has happened recently is that a couple of people on the fAA forum have been digging hard for parts and drawings,presumably to make them ( a set of drawings/parts or vendors for the parts) generally available. I am all for them since it might prove a route for me to follow. However, one significant statement by them is that the assembly drawing in the Chief Maintenance manual is WRONG. If this is so, it makes a fundamental reference unreliable.
This is not to say that a shade tree mechanic couldn't come up with a correction but might make a difference along the way in procuring parts. Have you discovered this problem ? If so, it would be good to have you outline it here. Perhaps Paul will chime in on this too.

Dale

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joea
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by joea » Mon Mar 18, 2013 10:18

Just posted on the fAA email list...

~~~~~

Hello fAA list. Colie Pitts and I are putting together an Aeronca Aviator's Forum for this year's Sun-n-Fun quantifying the design, refurbishment, installation, various applications, maintenance, and mounting hardware for the McDowell (Aero Safety) Starter which was standard on the Post War Chief and optional on many other models of the early post war era. Thanks to many on this list as well as others, we (mostly Colie) have assembled prints and/or examples of virtually everything needed to install, service, operate, and trouble shoot the various applications of the starter. We have run into a snag however. We know that the drawing that appears in the original Aeronca Chief Manual is incorrect, showing certain parts improperly placed and perhaps shown backwards and that the starter will not operate when assembled as shown.

The manual drawing is also inconsistent with Aeronca Drawing #712.(This could be part of the reason the McDowell Starter fell out of favor years ago). When Colie assembled my starter using common sense, it worked 'like a dream'. So.... here's our request. Does anyone on the list have a clear and hopefully correct print or drawing from a source other than the Chief Manual? Does anyone have a clean copy of Aeronca plan and section drawing #712? The drawing we have shows the starter, but much of the printing is illegible. If any of you have any of this or other McDowell information, could we beg, borrow (not steal) it)?

Colie and are in good shape with our starters; our intent here is to put together all the germane information on this elegant piece of engineering so that other Aeronca owners, present and future, will not have to. We will, of course, share our findings with anyone who needs or wants them. We hope to see you at S-n-F. Thanks, Tom Roush, 11BC, and Colie Pitts, 11AC

~~~~~

Thank you Poobah,,I LOVE THIS FORUM! Two days ago we asked for some information, but Y'all have flooded us to the extent I need to find the time to sort thru it. Thank you, thank you! Colie and I now have more than enough material on hand or available to do a credible Forum next month at Sun-n-Fun. We are comfortable in saying that all the critical information needed is now collected.

We still could use a clean copy of the exploded view of the starter...NOT the drawing from the Chief manual however, and a clean copy of drawing 4-712 (thanks for the help on this Cy). This is a cut away section of the starter from two perspectives. The drawing we have is OK, but the notes cannot be read.

Either Colie or I will be contacting each of you who has sent us material or offered to do so, so as to sort out what we don't already have; this may take a while due to shear volume...and the weather tomorrow, which here in Tennessee is forecast to be beautiful! Thanks again. Tom Roush 11BC and Colie Pitts !!AC

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Paul Agaliotis » Mon Mar 18, 2013 16:48

Raleigh,
Let me look at my supply and see if I have a spare. I try to pick up this stuff when I see it and over the years I've got a little spare stuff.
There are also some spacers needed for proper alignment of the gear wheel.
Paul
Mailing Adress : Paul Agaliotis 2060 E. San Martin, San Martin,Calif. 95046

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by joea » Mon Mar 18, 2013 19:46

Guys,

How about this? Lets find both types of the ratchet gear then take both of them to a machine shop and get some copies made. Then we will have more for everyone to use!

Joe A

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by Chief Pilot » Tue Mar 19, 2013 01:33

Hi Dale, I also hope the fAA guys come up with a good collection of data and somehow make it available to us. My primary headache right now is getting the cowling to fit well enough to accommodate the starter. There is not much extra clearance for the starter and spinner in the nose bowl, so the fit of the cowling and alignment of the engine is critical. I haven't actually tried to mount the starter equipment, so keep that in mind as you read on.

The service manual is lacking some detail and does have some anomalies, but once you have all the right pieces I expect it is almost adequate. I’ve attached the page from the service manual. Here are my notes to go with it:
A: Bolts and spacers replace two thru-bolts in the engine crankcase.
B: Brackets attach to the bolts (A). Shims (not shown) center the brackets laterally.
C: Starter assembly attaches to the brackets (B). All these pieces make up the main starter assembly. This unit comes assembled and I hope to leave it that way. I don’t know if the exploded view details in the service manual drawing are correct or not.

D & E: Ratchet wheel and Spacer fit between the crankshaft flange and the propeller. Shims (not shown) may be necessary between (D) and the crankshaft flange to properly position (D) relative to the starter assembly. Spacer (E) is used only with a taper shaft. I had to have this fabricated. The drawing specifies 1/4" thick. Several sources on this site specify 1/2" thick. I believe a 1/4" spacer will provide adequate prop/nose bowl clearance but the spinner retaining screws are difficult to access. The 1/2" spacer solves both issues but is a deviation from the drawing. Photos showing both configurations are attached.

F: Front pulley bracket does not look exactly like the drawing. However with this piece in hand, I believe you would be able to install it easily enough.
G: Rear pulley bracket: The drawing does not show how this attaches, but when the cable is routed I expect the position and attachment will be apparent.

Here are a couple of links that may also help:
http://www.joea.com/mcdowell_safety_sta ... mation.htm
http://www.joea.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=4654

Paul, thanks a lot. I really appreciate the help.

Joe, I believe someone on this site looked into the ratchet wheel fabrication issue a while back and found it cost prohibitive. I'll see if I can find the posting.

Raleigh
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by joea » Tue Mar 19, 2013 01:55

Raleigh (thanks for a name, we are a friendly group here!)

Believe that you really need to get with Tom or Colie and chat with them. They are doing a presentation at Sun N Fun on the McDowell Starter and have much more documentation than anyone else.

BTW, Paul A made several of us some of the mounting hardware for the McDowell, so is a very good asset and resource. Some parts may be difficult or expensive to reproduce but once we find enough people to chip in the price might come down to where its reasonable.

Joe A

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by EDGEFLY » Tue Mar 19, 2013 09:54

Joe A.,

Thanks for your input. I think this topic should be a primary issue here and this thread can be a complete reference source for anyone trying to make the addition to their Chief. [It may also be of interest to owners and users of slower aircraft such as the Champ and maybe to those with less desirable brands of aircraft!]. Seriously, I am again going to start from ground zero to try to accumulate the necessary parts and data to modernize my Chief to its' 1946 (when it was born) status. in this regard, I am willing to help finance a project which enables fabrication of critical pieces if a demonstrably accurate specification can be pieced together. If I make it to S&F, I will attend Tom & Colies' seminar and report my experience here.

Ralieghs' recent input is the most comprehensive available and is an excellent start. It addresses the presumed shortcomings of the assembly (Chief Manual) drawings but does not detail them. The strong position that Tom and Colie have taken that the starter system just won't work as shown there is certainly something which needs to be clarified. I have previously asked for anyone with an 11AC which has a working starter installed to share data and specific parts photography with us here. Maybe there is no such animal !! It would be a significant step if that person or persons would do that. If photo posting on this forum is holding that up, Anyone who has such info can simply send it to my personal E-mail as an attachment. [tmail51a@gmail.com]

Let's have an exposé on the mysteries of McDowell starters here on this Thread.


Dale

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by joea » Tue Mar 19, 2013 10:52

Let me send an email to Tom and Colie and try to get them on this thread.

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:42

Joe , will try to post a couple pics to the forum, if successful will post some more. If not will send some to you for posting, Colie
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flanged shaft ratchet wheel.JPG
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tapered shaft ratchet wheel.JPG
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by joea » Tue Mar 19, 2013 11:58

Came through great Colie! Pls help these guys more!

Thx,

Joe A

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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:13

Will try to post some pics 1st of an A65-8 Mcdowell starter mount with a tapered shaft and over the induction tubes routing of the cable.
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prop, backing plate,spacer, ratchet wheel, tapered hub, removed.JPG
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spinner removed.JPG
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A65-8 with mcdowell starter.JPG
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:19

A65-8 installtion cont. The pics are being posted in the reversed order that I intended.
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mounting bracket , front pulley mount and spacer nuts.JPG
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nosebowl removed.JPG
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starter removed.JPG
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:27

more pics
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handle, handle stop, cable and pulley.JPG
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cable fairlead on firewall.JPG
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rear pulley bracket.JPG
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Re: Taper-shaft Ratchet Wheel Needed

Post by colie85857 » Tue Mar 19, 2013 12:33

Still more
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pawls.JPG
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1 (29).JPG
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tapered hub,ratchet wheel, spacer, backing plate and prop assembly.JPG
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